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Author Topic: Raw mk2 tier list  (Read 20091 times)
dvdcsn
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2010, 05:17:28 PM »

DVD, do you really think that shang is only one spot above scorpion? Think about shang's jab pressure, jump kicks, aaHKs(he can aaHK Baraka's jump kick), fast sweeps, fireball spamming capabilities, and I know not many people consider this when ranking him in the tier list, but the fact is that he can morph into any character.

That may be all well and good, but tier lists are made in terms of who has the highest number of advantageous matchups etc, not based on more isolated, one-time matchups (like #1 vs #2, #3 vs #4, in this case #6 vs #7 etc) . If you wanted to go by those matchups, you could ask 'what about shang vs. raiden'? Shang has an advantageous matchup against raiden, but a less advantageous matchup against scorpion; scorpion has an advantageous matchup against raiden. Why would this make shang #6, raiden #7 and scorpion #10? Why would raiden take the #7 spot over scorpion when scorpion is better than raiden? It doesn't matter. Because tier lists aren't made this way. When it comes down to it, scorpion has more advantageous matchups, not to mention advantageous (or at least somewhat) matchups against  Embarrassed Cool Grin  Lips Sealed Wink. Enough to place him under shang at #7, all in my opinion, of course.  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 05:27:32 PM by dvdcsn » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2010, 06:40:40 PM »

Dvd, please understand that this discussion is for the sake of the discussion and nothing more, brotha! Shang in my opinion destroys scorpion! Do me a favor, tell me why you think scorpion beats shang, since you placed him over scorp.

EDIT** DVD, you said yourself that the tier list is based on high level play only. Now why do you think scorpion has an advantage over raiden? Is it because you can block the torpedo, teleport and spear? In high level play, the raiden player would simply just NOT use the torpedo unless he just ducked scorpion's spear at close range. Scorpion is raiden's bitch in my opinion. Raiden has the jab pressure over scorpion, teleport, close-up game by mixing jabs/shock-grab/teleport-and-jab-some-more, etc. all scorpion has is the back-up turtle game and teleport IF raiden is dumb enough to throw projectiles across the entire screen... which simply would not happen at high level play. Scorpion relies too much on people chasing him to win. If you make scorpion chase raiden, the odds stack up against scorp.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:01:11 PM by Foozer » Logged

dvdcsn
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 09:34:35 PM »

Dvd, please understand that this discussion is for the sake of the discussion and nothing more, brotha!

It's all good brotha!  Smiley

Do me a favor, tell me why you think scorpion beats shang, since you placed him over scorp.
Huh? When did I ever say I thought scorpion beat shang? I ranked shang at #6 and scorpion at #7. Is this a typo?  Huh?

DVD, you said yourself that the tier list is based on high level play only.

No. I said that tiers are based on equally skilled opponents. Tier lists based on high level play would be a flop due to the fact that nobody really knows what constitutes "high level play". It's a concept so abstract that it's impossible to define because it's relative. We might not even be high level for all we really know! And what about the "novices" looking to use the tiers for reference? They won't be able to rely on them with any kind of accuracy. That's no way to make a tier list.

Now why do you think scorpion has an advantage over raiden? Is it because you can block the torpedo, teleport and spear? In high level play, the raiden player would simply just NOT use the torpedo unless he just ducked scorpion's spear at close range. Scorpion is raiden's bitch in my opinion. Raiden has the jab pressure over scorpion, teleport, close-up game by mixing jabs/shock-grab/teleport-and-jab-some-more, etc. all scorpion has is the back-up turtle game and teleport IF raiden is dumb enough to throw projectiles across the entire screen... which simply would not happen at high level play. Scorpion relies too much on people chasing him to win. If you make scorpion chase raiden, the odds stack up against scorp.
It's all good man. We're entitled to our own opinions. But I think you're underestimating what scorpion can do if you think he's just limited to some one-dimensional turtle strategy. Raiden's teleport falls victim to buffering back then LP for the spear or just simply uppercut. Torpedo get's punished by well timed teleport punch, spear, uppercut or just simply spear, uppercut. Shock grabs can be a nasty surprise, but what if it gets blocked? Spear, uppercut, etc. Scorpion owns raiden in the air due to air throw. Raiden's projectiles can be teleport punched on reaction. We can sit here and go back and forth about this stuff online, but the real test will always be in the game. Strats are always subject to change, and these guys are pretty evenly matched with scorpion having more advantageous matchups on average and in this particular matchup, a slight advantage in my opinion over raiden. Thus,  Huh? #7,  Embarrassed #8
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gematria
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 09:53:05 PM »

1.JAX
2.MILEENA
3.KANG
4.KITANA
5.SHANG TSUNG
6.KUNG LAO
7.SCORPION
8.RAIDEN
9.SUB ZERO
10.JOHNNY CAGE
11.BARAKA
12.REPTILE
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:54:41 PM by gematria » Logged
ages0ne
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 02:32:34 AM »

IMHO

#1 Reptile
#2 Shang Tsung
#3 Mileena
#4 Kitana
#5 Kung Lau
#6 Jax
#7 Raiden
#8 Scorpion
#9 Sub Zero
#10 Baraka
#11 Lui Kang
#12 Johnny Cage
**DISCLAIMER**

the above list is full of bias... That's just how I roll
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Foozer1
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 05:50:06 AM »

Ok, I will attempt to put together some of my thoughts on this, for the sake of keeping the discussion going. Like you say, we can choose to stop discussing this and just play the game, but in a way, that will prove just as much (or just as little) as discussing in a forum because you always have to wonder about skill level, player habits, etc.

Huh? When did I ever say I thought scorpion beat shang? I ranked shang at #6 and scorpion at #7. Is this a typo?  Huh?
I just assumed that you thought shang beat scorpion since you placed him as higher than scorp... I think we can both agree that jax beats liu, hence jax is one spot above liu on both our tier lists. EDIT** Sorry dude, I got confused I guess!  Huh? onto raiden vs. scorp:

No. I said that tiers are based on equally skilled opponents. Tier lists based on high level play would be a flop due to the fact that nobody really knows what constitutes "high level play". It's a concept so abstract that it's impossible to define because it's relative. We might not even be high level for all we really know! And what about the "novices" looking to use the tiers for reference? They won't be able to rely on them with any kind of accuracy. That's no way to make a tier list.
High level play is not as abstract as you might think. Imagine two players that do not make mistakes or take chances with moves that are easily punishable. They capitalize on all mistakes and punish to the fullest capacity. I understand what you're saying about novices looking to use the tier list by reference, but you have to realize that every character has a "high-tier" style of play. If you do not use this "high-tier" style, then you might as well just flip a coin before you rely on the tier list to help you win with that character. Whether or not anyone in here is "high-level," that is up for debate and very subjective. However, if we don't have a solid "high-level" play style to refer to, we might as well throw the tier list away.

Raiden's teleport falls victim to buffering back then LP for the spear or just simply uppercut.
Assuming we're talking about high level play, a smart raiden player would only fall for this 1 time, then capitalize on it from that point on. Did you know that while you are teleporting with raiden, you can hold block and come out on the other end blocking? David was the one who made me aware of this and punished me severely with it.

Torpedo get's punished by well timed teleport punch, spear, uppercut or just simply spear, uppercut.
Again, in high level play, a raiden player would be well aware of the repercussions of a whiffed torpedo and would only use it only when he knows it won't be blocked.

Shock grabs can be a nasty surprise, but what if it gets blocked? Spear, uppercut, etc. Scorpion owns raiden in the air due to air throw. Raiden's projectiles can be teleport punched on reaction.
One missed shock grab should be enough of a learning lesson for a smart raiden player and from that point on, he would either not use the move, or only use it when he knows it will land. As far as the air throw goes, we both know that jumping is not used abundantly and care-free in high level matches. And a raiden player who would throw a projectile to scorpion while backed up against the edge of the screen is simply not a smart raiden player.

It may seem like I'm bashing scorpion here a bit, but really I'm just pointing out his weaknesses. Ninjas in MK2 are somewhat of a "wild card" in that although they may be low tier, they can be used in smart and creative ways to get wins, while mid to high tier players don't really have to rely on being creative as much.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:33:14 AM by Foozer » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 05:52:01 AM »

the above list is full of bias... That's just how I roll
Cheesy
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ages0ne
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 10:38:38 AM »

ya like that?

I don't mean to be all dick-like, but I think we all can agree there are some days where we play better than others. & I can't speak for everyone here, but there are times when I fall into a zone of sorts, where I feel as if I can play any character (minus Cage) at top level.

I've never been one for tiers, and usually I'll go for an underdog just to prove a point to people. (I luv me some Shun of VF)

I think way back when, when we had to insert our hard earned allowance into the arcade machine... a tire list was valuable, 'cause fuck.... who wants to keep puttin money in the machine when you can just counter pick yer opponent an 'guarantee' yerself a victory and save yerself some cash? now a days with "free play" who gives a flying fuck that mileena, jax, an lui top the  'most played' list? I still have fun no matter what, and while I may not be at most of yer levels... I enjoy playing this classic just as much if not more. So I apologize if I don't take MK as seriously as some of you.

--up+start
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Konqrr
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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 12:09:38 AM »

I just assumed that you thought shang beat scorpion since you placed him as higher than scorp... I think we can both agree that jax beats liu, hence jax is one spot above liu on both our tier lists.


Some things about Tier Lists:

* If character A beats character B in their specific matchup, that does very little to the placement for those characters on the tier list.  The list is created based on matchups against every character.

Like dvdcsn said:
tier lists are made in terms of who has the highest number of advantageous matchups etc, not based on more isolated, one-time matchups (like #1 vs #2, #3 vs #4, in this case #6 vs #7 etc) . If you wanted to go by those matchups, you could ask 'what about shang vs. raiden'? Shang has an advantageous matchup against raiden, but a less advantageous matchup against scorpion; scorpion has an advantageous matchup against raiden. Why would this make shang #6, raiden #7 and scorpion #10? Why would raiden take the #7 spot over scorpion when scorpion is better than raiden? It doesn't matter. Because tier lists aren't made this way. When it comes down to it, scorpion has more advantageous matchups


* Tier Lists do not mean that a character at the top cannot be beaten by a character at the bottom.  It means that the character at the top has better options/damage/setups/etc or is safer/hard to punish/takes less risks to use effectively than other characters.  Also, as a whole, has better matchups against the rest of the cast than the character ranked lower.

Here we go:

Top
1. Jax
2. Liu Kang
3. Mileena

High Mid
4. Kung Lao
5. Kitana
6. Shang
7. Raiden

Low Mid
8. Scorpion
9. Cage
10. Sub-Zero

Bottom
11. Reptile
12. Baraka

Mileena beats Liu on normals and up close pressure alone.  He cannot do low fire at all in this matchup when she is 1/2 screen or closer or he eats a roll -> jk combo every time or a sweep at the least if she is in range.  Mileena never jumps or does random rolls or telekicks in this matchup and Liu has to be very careful in everything he does.  High Fireballs are preferred due to the much better recovery time, though.  Match is 6-4 in Mileena's favor.

ZOMG, why is Baraka so low?  ...What does he have, seriously?  Good jabs, sweep, jk, roundhouse, and free anti-air bbb+lp?  Who in their right mind ever jumps at him?  Maybe Kitana or Liu who can stop their forward jump with an air projectile, that's it.  So that leaves him with only normals to work with which everyone has.  His projectile is only good against Cage, really.  He is very limited in his options and his high priority moves can be shut down by most of the cast.  Look at Baraka in a matchup point of view and you should see what I see.

Why is Reptile NOT at the bottom?  Three things...Invisibility, fast and quick recovering Acid Spit, and Forceball pressure.  Simply put, he has good special moves.  It's his Male Ninja normals that suck (jabs, uppercut).  He just has a lot of bad matchups.

Shang's jabs are the absolute best in the game, hands down.  Once he sweeps you, it's time to panic.

Kitana = damage, great sweep, instant Air Fan (any air fan lol), great jab game

Kung Lao = Mobility.  He has several huge damage combos.  His Dive Kick changes how his opponent plays the game.  Has that great lphphp pressure game on blocking opponents.  Close roundhouse is gdlk.  Jump back punch is so good, it even beats out Mileena's Telekick and Kitana's Square Wave Punch...just like Liu Kang.

Dubson and I have done extensive research and discussion on the matchups.  There have been several revisions to this list over the last couple of years and I think that this one is pretty damn accurate.

Here's the grid:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9308/mkiitiergrid8.png
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:27:18 AM by Konqrr » Logged
fusion117
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 01:40:07 PM »

................ Huh? sorry Konqrr but that tier list is ancient history buddy.
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Konqrr
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 04:59:23 PM »

................ Huh? sorry Konqrr but that tier list is ancient history buddy.
Just because it looks the same (format), doesn't mean that it's ancient and to dismiss it like it's nothing is laughable.  It was updated very recently.

And seeing how Foozer is even coming up with his ideas for a tier list means that he has no business making one.  He doesn't understand what makes one.

Ancient history lol ... kind of like this shitty game.
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2010, 06:31:09 PM »

Konqrr, I really would stop talking right about now. I was willing to let you go on about your "infinite MK2 knowledge," but when you start telling us that we have no business talking about MK2 and that Mk2 is a shitty game, that's crossing a line. You come on here and give us lectures about MK2, yet most of us have never played you in MK2. That tier list isn't ancient history, YOU are ancient history. If you aren't going to back up your words with some game time, then you really have no place here bud.

The fact that you place jax at #1 and Mileena at #3 is plain hilarious to me. What's even more hilarious is that you take time out of your precious schedule to post in a forum for a game that you think is shit. Fusion and I could destroy your fossil ass any day, afterwards, I am sure you would just say that Mk2 is a broken/boring/turtling/cheap/stupid game just like all the other "old school" players we've destroyed.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 06:42:41 PM by Foozer » Logged

Konqrr
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2010, 07:04:35 PM »

I just said that you have no business making a tier list because you don't understand how one is created.  I said nothing about discussing one...nor was I disrespectful, just stating a fact based on what you have posted in this thread.

If you guys are going to attack me and all the time I've put into this game and the community, I can and will attack back.  You don't like it, tough shit.  Also, nobody (myself included) said that I was any good in this game, but that does NOT mean that I don't know how it is played at a high level or how specific matchups are played out.

I know what I am talking about, don't be so defensive.
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fusion117
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2010, 07:16:23 PM »

@ Konqrr , ill fill you in on what Foozers talking about. See lately anytime someone gets beat at this game the first thing they do is bash it!!! Just go check the ggs thread on CMK and you'll seee what im talking about. As for the tier list you put up, im just saying i disagree 100% with it and im the one that put up that list Foozer has on his list btw. Mileena wins and Reptile is dead last. Trust me i played that tier list in the arcade days and yes i know back then it was accurate but online play is a whole nother world dude. Jax and Lui both answer to Mileena, hands down.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 07:18:09 PM by fusion117 » Logged

 
Konqrr
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2010, 07:22:32 PM »

The tier list with Mileena on top was the old tier list.

Yes, Mileena wins the Liu matchup and is pretty even in the Jax one (you played dvd's jax with mileena?  he knows how it's done)  The matchup is even.

But just because she is good in the matchups against jax and liu does not mean that she is above them on the tier list!  This is what you guys don't understand!  Jax has more advantageous matchups against the rest of the cast than both Liu and Mileena...it has VERY little to do with how he stacks up against those two.

Liu and Mileena are pretty much interchangeable on the list, you see how close their matchups are?  If Liu didn't rape Scorpion, he'd be below Mileena, no question.
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