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Author Topic: PS3 MK2 Top 6 Tier-List?  (Read 9312 times)
mortal_jason
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« on: February 25, 2012, 02:00:49 AM »

perhaps this has been beat to death in the past
but wondering what everyone thinks is the top 6 tier in MK2
one of my buds strongly believes Kitana is #2... and I strongly disagree
like to argue some points and see how my fellow MK2 folk feel
I'm basing my tier list and arguments on each character in PS3 if they are played at the highest level possible
this includes instant moves
so this tier-rank has nothing to do with the arcade version
which has no real bearing on the modern game since not many even exist anymore  Cry Cry Cry
if it were 1994 then we could talk arcade tier...ahh the good ole days  Grin

WHY KANG Smiley MILEENA Evil AND JAX ARE GENERALLY CONSIDERED TOP 3:

most people agree on Mileena and Kang being top 2 yeah?
their ability to spam can completely shut out half of the other fighters if done properly
analog moves give them even another notch on the God-tier list belt
Kang at his finest can multiple bicycle kick in a way that's unblockable
Jax with multiple ground pounds can totally destroy nearly everyone
you might be able to block 2 mgp's...but 5? 6?
throw golden punches into the fray and he becomes an impenetrable tank

THE BATTLE FOR THE #4 SPOT:

not long ago I had a thread arguing Raiden as #4
through the educated opinions of other players I came to believe otherwise
I'm now a big believer in Tsung as #4 mostly based on his morphing skills

Tsung-  Shocked
Tsung can become a counterpick to anyone via his morphs
this potentially gives him a huge advantage in almost every matchup
his fireballs much like the spam of Mileena and Kang can shut out opponents
the fact he can become the best fighters in the game means in a sense he IS the best
not only can he be Kang but he can also simply be Tsung with all the great cqc skills and different fireballs
Shang Tsung IS jab pressure
no one wants to get close to him because he will jab you to death (and bite off your ear just for fun)  Cheesy
can you say nastiest jump kick in the game?
his only real weakness is his morphing in and out- which if mastered would not really be an issue

Kitana-  Kiss
her instant fan moves give her some serious weapons on ps3
instant air fans can almost be spammed as heavily as sai or fireballs
yet if she were fighting mastered Tsung/Mileena/Jax/Kang I don't think she would win
her instant fans can be easily avoided- something that you can't say about Jax's MGPs for instance
and she definitely cannot spam iafs as rapidly as Mileena Kang and Tsung can spam their projectiles
her great cqc skills aren't as effective vs Tsung Mileena or Kang who also have great cqc abilities
also she can't just morph into Mileena when the going gets tough like Tsung can do
her fan raise combos are probably the best in MK2 but rather useless if your opponent never jumps
her jump punch/square wave punch wins air battles vs nearly every fighter and is tricky to anti-air
her jab presure is better than even Mileena's because of her fan swipes
but that's just not enough for me to consider her above Tsung

Lao-  Tongue
Lao is one of my worst fighters so I might not be the person to argue for him
but even though I am terrible with him
I can still see his strengths especially when playings vs great ones
ninjas have a hard time roundhousing him
stellar uppercut and HK
super fast (yet unfortunately short) sweep kick
a nasty jump punch (which combos into dive kick for a simple yet beefy combo)
and a good teleport to get out of trouble or counter an opponents projectiles
all these things make him a great fighter even vs top tier
but again...he doesn't have Tsung's morph capabilities
his jump kick is probably the worst in the game
and I think most people would rather have even lowly Baraka in a Lao vs Baraka matchup, right?

Raiden-  Embarrassed
well we kind of argued the Raiden side of things to death in a previous thread
though I will say it's interesting that for the Philadephia MK2 Brawl Tournament recently (sp?)
the final was a Raiden vs Raiden
so obviously Raiden has some huge strengths if the players are using him as their mains
Raiden does very well vs just about everyone except who...? TSUNG.  Shocked
personally I suck with Tsung... and Raiden is one of the fighters I have lots of trouble with
but yet even I win Tsung vs Raiden matchups most of the time

so overall ps3 MK2 tier list (fighters at their absolute highest level)
my list goes like this:

1 Mileena
2 Kang
3 Jax
4 Tsung (a very very close 3)
5 Kitana
6 Raiden

ok now to hear from everyone else
always would like to hear your arguments if you put someone I haven't mentioned in the top 6
remember these are just my opinions based on my experiences with the game
it's always possible I am under or over-rating Kitana based on my mad love for the woman  Huh?
but this is how I currently view things and this took fucking forever to type so give me opinions yo!
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Divine
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 05:29:07 AM »

To Mortal_Jason:

Dude you even said Foozer and Scorp Angel are or were better than you. How is that a good comparison?

I said Kang and Kitana can compete vs each other, one doesn't completely dominate the other one.

And Jax? Wth dude. You even said that Btbb is better than you and your Kitana vs his Jax break almost even. And he uses MGP. There's no other Jax that you can't compete with besides people that are just better than you.

I just don't see how Kang owns Kitana so much. You just seem to get owned by Kang. Even that kid Zipcord beat your Kit with Liu, and I bodied his Liu with Baraka. lmao

Everybody uses Kitana vs Jax. She's a good character to use vs him. It's all about the match ups.

The only reason Tyung can compete with Kitana is because his projectile shuts those instant fan moves down. All she really has to do is duck and wait for him to get closer, but then again he can abuse morphs if given the opportunity.

------------------------------------------------------
My tier list is:

Mileena
Kang-Jax-Kitana-Shang
Everyone else (certain charc on the lower tiers can compete with the higher tiers though, like Raiden, Lao, Rep vs Kitana, but I don't think they can outright beat her).

But it's really about the match ups.

Mileena beats everyone. Kitana and Liu compete almost directly. Kitana and Jax compete almost directly. Shang beats Kitana, and does pretty good vs Jax. I'm not sure about Jax vs Liu though.
--------------------------

My argument with Jason was where does Kitana stand on the tier list.

I think she beats everyone easily except Mileena and Shang, and competes directly with Jax and Liu. And MAYBE she could loss to a good Raiden.

I'm open to other people's ideas, but back your shit up with some evidence, or I'm unmoved.
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mortal_jason
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 10:15:02 PM »

I think Fooz and Scorpangel have mastered Kang in the same way I have with Kitana
Kang just has way more options than Kitana and those guys know how to hit you 40 times before you can spin your head back on straight
you'd have to play them to really see what I mean since you're Kitanas as good as mine

no I don't get owned by Kang
I beat most Kangs with Kitana and I've gone like 50-1 vs Zippys Kang
even that 1 I lost I should have won
you're doing exactly what he wanted you to from his vids- think that he owns me LOL

Kitana vs Jax is pretty even I think
but I think Jax at his absolute best kills her most of the time
he can AAHK all her jumps/sq waves
could keep distance and mgp
he can crouch punch her sweeps and gp right after
hard to time but we're talking absolute best level

Kitana does not beat everyone easily except those 4 lol
even Sub-Zero Scorpion Reptile Lao and Raiden all go pretty even with her
she has a slight edge over the ninjas because of her mad cqc
but she does NOT dominate any of those players

and I gave lots of evidence when I argued each character in the starting post 
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Foozer1
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 01:39:36 AM »

I think Fooz and Scorpangel have mastered Kang in the same way I have with Kitana
Kang just has way more options than Kitana and those guys know how to hit you 40 times before you can spin your head back on straight
you'd have to play them to really see what I mean since you're Kitanas as good as mine

no I don't get owned by Kang
I beat most Kangs with Kitana and I've gone like 50-1 vs Zippys Kang
even that 1 I lost I should have won
you're doing exactly what he wanted you to from his vids- think that he owns me LOL

Kitana vs Jax is pretty even I think
but I think Jax at his absolute best kills her most of the time
he can AAHK all her jumps/sq waves
could keep distance and mgp
he can crouch punch her sweeps and gp right after
hard to time but we're talking absolute best level

Kitana does not beat everyone easily except those 4 lol
even Sub-Zero Scorpion Reptile Lao and Raiden all go pretty even with her
she has a slight edge over the ninjas because of her mad cqc
but she does NOT dominate any of those players

and I gave lots of evidence when I argued each character in the starting post 

She dominates all male ninjas, hands down. Play my kit vs any ninja and try to win more than 2 out of 10.
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MIKE CALDWELL
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 03:34:23 AM »

I think Fooz and Scorpangel have mastered Kang in the same way I have with Kitana
Kang just has way more options than Kitana and those guys know how to hit you 40 times before you can spin your head back on straight
you'd have to play them to really see what I mean since you're Kitanas as good as mine

no I don't get owned by Kang
I beat most Kangs with Kitana and I've gone like 50-1 vs Zippys Kang
even that 1 I lost I should have won
you're doing exactly what he wanted you to from his vids- think that he owns me LOL

Kitana vs Jax is pretty even I think
but I think Jax at his absolute best kills her most of the time
he can AAHK all her jumps/sq waves
could keep distance and mgp
he can crouch punch her sweeps and gp right after
hard to time but we're talking absolute best level

Kitana does not beat everyone easily except those 4 lol
even Sub-Zero Scorpion Reptile Lao and Raiden all go pretty even with her
she has a slight edge over the ninjas because of her mad cqc
but she does NOT dominate any of those players

and I gave lots of evidence when I argued each character in the starting post 

She dominates all male ninjas, hands down. Play my kit vs any ninja and try to win more than 2 out of 10.

Foozer, sitting in a crouch and low toeing jump ins and teleports wont cut it nowadays. 
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MIKE CALDWELL
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 04:17:00 AM »

I'm only gonna comment on Kitana bc for one im lazy and that's all you and divine are really interested in anyway.  This is based on Kitana being played at the highest level possible like you said, and I actually believe that Jason is the only player to have ever achieved this.  Based on the way Jason plays her, I feel like she is a very solid number 4

Jason, I think you might be slightly underestimating Kitana bc you have never faced one that can play like yours.  Just the threat of instant air fans and lifts changes things completely.  Lets say i'm sub, and i'm waiting on you to jump so I can roundhouse you.  My problem with you is that when you leave the ground, I don't know if a fan is about to come out or not, so this allows you to get inside on me much more often than you should.  I would agree with you 100% if the analog sticks weren't involved, but with these tricks that you've mastered she's a beast.  Think about it Jason.  We can never jump in on you, anti airs become much more difficult, her low toe allows you to get out of pressure very easily bc it shrinks her hitbox to nothing, her cqc is very strong, and easy 50% combos.  I agree that the there are several characters outside of the top 3 that can give her a headache, but those characters have to play twice as smart as her in order to compete.  Give yourself some credit Jason, bc your Kitana puts her where she's at on the tier list.  The way that everyone else plays her drops her to 5 or 6 imo.   
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Divine
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2012, 04:33:55 AM »

no I don't get owned by Kang
I beat most Kangs with Kitana and I've gone like 50-1 vs Zippys Kang
even that 1 I lost I should have won
you're doing exactly what he wanted you to from his vids- think that he owns me LOL
I don't really think that Zip guy owns anybody. His trolling videos are just funny as hell. lol

Kitana vs Jax is pretty even I think
but I think Jax at his absolute best kills her most of the time
he can AAHK all her jumps/sq waves
could keep distance and mgp
he can crouch punch her sweeps and gp right after
hard to time but we're talking absolute best level

What is absolute level? Are we talking about a hypothetical level or a tangible human level? Like I said, you haven't pointed out an instance where you lose to a Jax vs a player that isn't already better than you. From those vids of you vs Btbb on Youtube, you guys look about even in that match. Those characters are pretty much even with iaf and mgp.

J referring to Kitana vs the ninjas:
she has a slight edge over the ninjas because of her mad cqc
but she does NOT dominate any of those players

You're pretty much admitting yourself right here that she does own the ninjas. Do you really think that something that appears as a small advantage doesn't make a huge difference when something is competed at close to peak human ability?

I'll use the game chess as an analogy. Let's say for instance that there are two chess grand masters playing against each other, and they are both pretty close in skill level. Now imagine if one of these players had just ONE extra pawn to use. Do you know how dramatically different that would affect the outcome?

The top MK2 players have been mastering the match ups for years. I agree with Foozer about the ninjas vs Kitana almost 100%. Her sweeping range, lp, fan swipe, and cross ups seal the deal vs every ninja. Not to mention the ninjas shitty jump kick, which gets shut down by Kitana.

J, you even said once that people that use Scorp as their main get frustrated by your Kitana because she's a higher tier than they are. Now you're arguing against that. Make up your mind. :/
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Divine
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 04:39:36 AM »

Just the threat of instant air fans and lifts changes things completely.  Lets say i'm sub, and i'm waiting on you to jump so I can roundhouse you.  My problem with you is that when you leave the ground, I don't know if a fan is about to come out or not, so this allows you to get inside on me much more often than you should.  I would agree with you 100% if the analog sticks weren't involved, but with these tricks that you've mastered she's a beast.

This is what I try to explain to Jason all the time. The IAF trick changes the way the game is played completely. I don't understand why he can't see that. You can't even turtle vs his Kitana with the ninjas because of the IAF, which was one of the only ways for the ninjas to win vs her.
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mortal_jason
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 06:06:52 AM »

I have played progresiveorange's Kitana and he does iafs just as much as I do
it def gives her another weapon though vs him I was able to predict it after playing him enough
still I think the ninjas all played at their absolute peak can compete just fine with her
I always feel pretty good when I get Reptile or Subz vs Kitana
Scorpion vs Kitana I am terrible with but a really good Scorpion knows how to win that one
they can keep her away with their roundhouse pretty well
if she gets into their zone then yeah they're in trouble
but they all have ways of avoiding her (invisibility, slides, teleport)

I give her a slight advantage but will never say she owns the ninjas
Mileena owns the ninjas
Kitana does not

Divine..make up my mind? I never have said Scorpion was higher than Kitana on ps3
and if you're maining Scorpion you should be used to fighting higher tier because hes towards the bottom IMO
I put Kitana at #5- a few spots above Scorpion
I don't believe that match is a breeze for her like it is for the top 3
Mileena Jax and Kang all crush Scorpion
Kitana has to work for it and play smart

thanks Mike...nice compliments...though you won't see me iaf your Subz too often
because I can get froze or slid too easily
I know what you're saying though..I get people to roundhouse into my iafs alot
with all the instants she could very well be #3
(though in my mind she's interchangably in the #4-#6 range)
but there's no way she is above Kang

Fooz remember Doc challenged my Reptile to fight his ladies a few months ago?
he is a great player for sure and I was able to win the majority vs his Kitana
I love that matchup- we'll have to do some next time
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gamemk
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 10:41:55 AM »

i'm glad you made this thread because ps3/online mk is 1000% different than the official arcade version, and  i realize that most of my rage comes from this fact.  the ps3 ports are an aberration with many imperfections, the greatest of which is the introduction of lag, questionable framerate, and questionable port quality.  however, it is what is available.  i remember in the old days people would act tough because they were good at the shitty home ports (on pad), but it could all be resolved by going straight to the arcade and beating the shit out of them on the real hardware.  but that's impossible now.  instant air shit breaks the game.  using the analog sticks to aid in instant air shit breaks the game.  i can do instant air fireball with that stupid ass analog stick, but i never will because that's NOT being good at mk2, and it's NOT possible on the arcade.  the same goes for mbk, mgp, and instant raiden superman. 


that said, this is my complete online/modern mk2 port tier list complete with asterisk, lag, and exploits.
liu kang (*on pad with instant air fireball)
kitana (*on pad with instant air fans)
jax (*on pad, mgp)
mileena (*on pad)
scorpion (*on pad with lag and airthrow spam)
shang tsung
raiden
kung lao
baraka
johnny cage
sub-zero
reptile


mk2 port tier list offline using exploits
liu kang (*on pad with instant air fireball)
kitana (*on pad with instant air fans)
mileena (*on pad)
jax (*on pad, mgp)
shang tsung
scorpion
raiden
baraka
kung lao
reptile
johnny cage
sub-zero


mk2 port tier list offline without exploits
liu kang
mileena
jax
kitana
shang tsung
scorpion
raiden
baraka
kung lao
reptile
johnny cage
sub-zero

mk2 arcade tier list imo
mileena
jax
liu kang
kitana
shang tsung
kung lao
raiden
baraka
scorpion
johnny cage
sub-zero
reptile
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MIKE CALDWELL
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 11:41:10 AM »

Jason, ProOrange does use iaf just as much as you, but that's all he does the entire match.  Like you said, he becomes very predictable with it.  He's also not doing crouching fan lifts from what I remember, so jumping in on him is much less risky.  Until you've played a Kitana at your level, which nobody is, you won't fully understand.  People say Sushi had the best Kitana in his day, but I guarantee that you would murder him if both of you were in your prime. 

I said earlier that I thought Jason was underestimating Kitana a bit, but I also feel like everyone else is overestimating her.  She's not #2 or even #3 on the list, although #3 wouldn't be a huge stretch.  I can't see moving her up on the tier list just bc Jason happens to have the coordination and dexterity to switch back and forth from the analog to dpad like nobody can or ever has.  I don't think Kitana owns the ninjas either.  To justify the word "own", she would have to beat them 8-2 and that's just not the case.  Jason is not even a specialist with the ninjas, but I bet if you guys were to pick Kitana against his ninjas he could prove you guys wrong on that one.

Lets be honest guys.  How many times have we all played against a scorpion or sub player that tested our patience when we used Kitana?  It happens all the time.  This doesn't change just bc Jason is a freak of nature. 
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Foozer1
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 01:10:53 PM »

Foozer, sitting in a crouch and low toeing jump ins and teleports wont cut it nowadays.  
Right, because that's all I do when I play huh.


Jason, this is definitely an interesting thread, but you're sort of beating a dead horse. The tier list (or at least the top 6) has generally been agreed on. Shang is not #4. Kitana is not #5. Jax is DEFINITELY not #3. Your point of view on the MK2 tier list is largely biased by the only two characters that you pick. You get owned by my liu kang, so you think he's #2. You destroy jax with your kitana, so you think he's #3. Shang gives your kitana a hard time, well he must be #4!!! Oh and  Tongue is insulted that he didn't make the top 6 on your list. It's kinda ridiculous that he didn't.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 08:18:32 PM by Foozer1 » Logged

mortal_jason
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 03:45:36 AM »

again Fooz, I use EVERYONE, not just the girls
I def enjoy using the girls the most but I use all the fighters as you well know
since last time we did 20 randoms and we had very ggs
and everyone knows I love using Cage and Reptile so its always insulting to hear I only use 2 lol
especially to my Cage Sad

well if Tsung isnt 4, Kitana isnt 5 and Jax DEF isnt 3, what are they?
add your tier to this thread!
alot of people were putting Jax at 1 after XiongBros' videos
I don't agree w that but I think 3-4 is where he lands

I went about 1-4 w Kitana vs your Kang last time we played
I wouldn't call that owned but we can play 20 sometime and then maybe you'll own me
your Kang is sick so it is possible I'm sure

also I don't own Jax w Kitana...if he's played at his highest level he would kill me most of the time
and actually MOST Tsungs don't give me trouble...I know how to win it
at a high level though he is a beast and the morphing ability solidifies that for me
Lao should probably be #6 on my list...I do underestimate him because Raiden is harder for me to beat

gamemk: how can you ever put Kitana over Mileena in any version/lag etc??
yes lag totally messes up her fast attacks but her air sai will always be better than any instant fans
she can shoot 3 to 4 air sai for every instant fan Kitana can throw
and air sai is way easier to pull off

Mike: progresive actually does use the instant fan raise but not very much
and agree w what you said...would have liked to play this Sushi guy
I'm guessin he ain't around anymore huh?
love good Kitana mirrors...Divine got me a couple times last time we did them...I don't get to face too many elite ones unfortunately
I always feel pretty comfortable fighting against Kitana with any fighter because I know what abilities they have that give me fits when I'm using her
Scorpion I am really bad with vs Mileena and Kitana but I def don't mind Reptile or Subz vs them

freak of nature  Grin
really you give me too much credit... you guys could all do iafs as much as I do
I don't consider myself to be more coordinated or as having faster reflexes than any of you
guess I've just put a lot of time into doing Kitana's moves
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Foozer1
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 07:37:22 AM »

again Fooz, I use EVERYONE, not just the girls
I def enjoy using the girls the most but I use all the fighters as you well know
since last time we did 20 randoms and we had very ggs
Yeah, we had ggs, but out of those 20 you won 5 randoming.

I went about 1-4 w Kitana vs your Kang last time we played
Now you're just making shit up... I 10 streaked your girls with liu, then you beat me one, I beat you one and quit. How is that 1-4? And yes, I would call losing 11 out of 12 getting owned.

Here is the top 6 as everyone generally agrees on:

1. Mileena
2. Jax
3. Liu Kang
4. Kitana
5. Kung Lao
6. Shang

You have obviously never played a good jax if you think he should be at spot 3 or 4, that's just laughable, jason.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:09:26 AM by Foozer1 » Logged

gamemk
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 12:44:09 PM »

if you use exploits to play the game (exploits being instant air anything) then kitana beats mileena.  why? because the psychology/design of mk1-umk3 is completely broken ,and when you introduce exploits the game becomes virtually unplayable, at least not on any intelligent level.  ever had someone play keep away against you as a kid?  not very much fun is it?  i think mid air moves in a fighting game are foolish unless you're playing a "vs" game like marvel.  in any event, in a serious fighting game mid air moves are broken.  anyway, aside from that kitana wins vs mileena (using exploits) because  mileena(with or without exploits) has to take risks in order to win.  her mid air sais are her biggest tool, but they can be ducked for 0% damage/gain, and if kitana stays at a certain range and mileena keeps doing mid air sais the game will end in a draw if neither player engages. however, we know the mileena player wants to win so we know that eventually they will take a risk to do ball, jump kick, walk forward or teleport at some point, but this is why kitana wins.  

with iaf, kitana becomes more broken than mileena, and against them mileena can't jump and can't walk forward, leaving sai spam, ball, and teleport which can all be avoided or blocked and punished.  iaf allows kitana to be played passive aggressively which breaks the game.  only liu kang can dominate kitana because none of his projectiles require a charge, and they control vertical, horizontal, and crouching horizontal even in spite of kitana's ability to duck his crouch fireball.  a lot of stupid design which still hampers mk9, imo.  imagine if there was a character who could slide and recover fast enough to punish all mid air projectiles.  that would've been a cool character. they also need pushback and blockstun to jab pressure because you shouldn't be able to kick out of it.
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